Owner Built Resale

For those areas not suitable below and directly related to general building or fitout topics
rexd666
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Location: Melbourne, Vic

Owner Built Resale

Post by rexd666 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:36 am

Hey all,

As a quick introduction, my name is Steve, I live in inner eastern Melbourne and have been looking at a few designs. I am currently 35 and wanted to do this (live aboard and see the world) while I am still young. (Wasn't that long ago that 35 was old) Generally looking at around 50', so far Oram 48C, Schionning Wilderness 1500 and Spirited 480. All Duflex kits. My build will be part time, and I will have to commute to the build site so weekends, holidays and maybe some professional help along the way budget permitting. Budget is still being determined, but say 300K+ at the end, expect to start out with about 100K.



Anyway one of the concerns from the lovely wife is that said project would use up all my worldly possessions and leave us with very little at the end of the process. Therefore I thought I would ask around to see what sort of examples are about of owner built cats that have gone on to sell. I see Schionnings advertised for 500-600+, but most seem pro builds. Is there a significant impact on the resale price for owner built?



Schionnings appear the best represented design, I know Spirited are new, but one would assume the Schionning name rubs off on them. About the only Oram I have seen for sale is Mango. So also happy to hear any opinions around the design resales, so if one sells for more etc. No arguments from avid fans of particular designs please.



Not saying that I want to sell my hard work, but I guess it will give the wife some security to know we can get all or a good part of our initial investment back.

madaz
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Owner Built Resale

Post by madaz » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:09 am

Another design that you might consider is a fusion 40, I am not building one... !



Alot of these are owner built. I wouldnt say that being owner built equates to lower resale or affects the resale significantly.



The finish achieved, fitout and equipment does.



The quality of the fitout of owner builders is often not as good as a pro builder does for obvious reasons. Kit boats with pre cut components help alot but indivual fitout in terms of cupboards, trims, woodwork, flooring, linings paints seating curves coves etc etc etc and on and on and on it goes! is always done by the builder wether its a kit boat or built from scratch and if you dont have the skills to do a top job you might be better off getting in help at certain times to make sure the icing is on the cake just right. if that is done then you wont have any worries.



The would be little point spending good dollars on a kit boat and making a hash of the fitout, no design or brand name will get your money back in that case.

rexd666
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Location: Melbourne, Vic

Owner Built Resale

Post by rexd666 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:57 am

Fusion is pre-molded components isn't it? Haven't actually looked at the costs around them, sort of assumed they would be more than I wanted to spend, plus I think I want longer. Need to get to boat shows to see how big they are for real.



I guess the fitout is the most visible component of the build and where much of the value will be determined. So something like the job 44c has done would most likely be better than most production boats? Certainly looks very good in the photos. If I could produce something like that I would be very happy, and I guess that is my current benchmark.



I am not sure I have the skills at the moment for every job, but would say I am pretty good with my hands, and with patience I assume a good finish can be achieved for most tasks. But I am not a tradie, so professionals for wood working touches etc.



44c can I ask did you have trade skills of some sort already?

kjay
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Location: brisbane

Owner Built Resale

Post by kjay » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:21 pm

Steve,

Check out an article in The Coastal Passage newspaper. The link is available through the topic heading "Sites of Interest" and the "nautical newspaper". Bob Norsman writes an article about the same question and talks to a few designers about it, his answer is he is now building an oram 39C, I think once you get to the website scroll down the page till you see the profile of the Catamaran he is building and then click on that. Good Luck, I am building an easy "Sarah" . One of the reasons for building a boat is that I promised my wife we will travel around Australia twice, first the outside and then the inside. If I were to build a motorhome (converted bus) for say $100k use it for a few years them sell it, I will be lucky to recover my costs, however the Cat budget is $120k and the value after a few years should be around $275-$300k. So if I go the boat first I should get a free motorhome, sounds simple but that is the plan. Good Luck.

John

Jim
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Owner Built Resale

Post by Jim » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:57 pm

Hi rex, welcome to the forum. I would have a big think about what you want and need in a boat because once you get bigger in size the costs go up at an alarming rate. I built an Easy 37 which I find size wise just fine for 2 people or 4 short term. A Fusion 40, which would have to be the best kit around, is not much bigger, but the cost of the mast, rig winches and sails would be double that of the Easy. If you go to 50' then keep going up with costs. There is also marina costs, more, haul out, more, insurance, more and so it goes. However if you know all this and have factored the costs in, then go for it.

Jim.

mahnamahna
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Owner Built Resale

Post by mahnamahna » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:43 am

Hi Rex. My name is Paul and I am building a Schionning wilderness 1230 duflex kit cat. Thought I would add my thoughts on the issue. The Fusions are a nice looking boat and yes they are pre molded vinylester foam core panels. I did some research and whilst vinylester is better than polyester it is not as good as epoxy. With due deference to the Easy and Waller builders here, a ply boat is a bit heavier than a composite boat, and resales are reflected in that. That is not to say that an Easy wont take you everywhere a Schionning would and in some cases just as fast, but generally speaking a lighter boat should out perform a heavier one of the same length especially in light winds, but there are many other variables, sailing ability not least of them (I have none) and rig. And of course a longer boat should perform a bit better than a smaller boat in most conditions but I have noticed that from a living size perspective there is not a lot of difference between a 40ft and 50ft boat, the bigger boat will be about 500mm wider but the extra length is mostly longer hull overhangs, and head room will be about the same. So I dont think that a 50fter will give you a lot more living space.



I chose a Schionning because at the time of purchase there were really only them and Orams offered as kits, now there are a dozen. I did not have the confidence to loft bulkhead shapes from small plans so felt more comfortable with a kit. But if the build is of a same product, ie comparing ply to ply or duflex to duflex, then it becomes an issue of which designer/design best suits you, cost is going to be fairly close for a similar size boat, a ply boat is cheaper to get on the water than a duflex one but you wont get the same resale price when it comes to sell. Whilst I dont regret my choice, knowing what I now know, I would not hesitate to build an Easy and as my money runs out I may wish I had! I would suggest that no matter what you choose to build, you should be able to more than recoup your outlay. There are some with time and no money and there are others with money and no time. If you do a good job of finishing the boat you may find that you could double your money, it is not uncommon.



And on the subject of production, pro built and amateur I have had first hand vision of what some boat builders pass as acceptable. Production boats are generally well finished because with practice they find the best ways to make them look good. But pro boats are built to a cost so in some circumstances the amateur takes much more time and care to get the boat right, especially when it comes to mistakes and fixing them. There was a Waller 1100 built in my shed by a variety of professional shipwrights and some were good others much better is the polite way to put it. The last guy who I consider the best of them told me there was a saying in boatbuilding (he works for the very best names including working on some of the most expensive boats getting around) and it is called polishing the turd. It is what most top boat builders do, they hire 2 types of builders, the guys that can slap a hull and deck together fast and to plan and then a team to come in and make their work sparkle to bring in the big bucks. This is also the reason most production boats use linings, it is cheaper, faster and easier to fit than fairing and painting an interior and whilst it weighs a little more, it looks fantastic and unless the fair and paint first class work, the linings will look much better. That is the way I am going.



My budget for a 12 meter boat is $200k-$250k depending on how much money I have left at launch or how keen I am to keep working a little longer to pay for the extras. But for $200k I will have a decent cruiser and the extra $50k is for such things as watermaker, genset and huge battery bank and solar array etc. Let me give you a tip that I am sure all here will concur with regardless of the boat they are building. There are bargains to be had and you need to keep an eye out for them. For example I recently bought $5000 worth of winches for $1800 from an offer on this site. Grab them when you see them. You could save $20k or more over the build. Another idea is dont just pay retail here in Australia and if you must buy at retail, use local marine outlets as a vendor of last resort, anything with the word marine in front of it seems to attract a 50% premium, and with the $ high stuff is so much cheaper in the USA, especially electronics. It is not uncommon to save 50% importing electronics from the US than buying locally. And eBay is a wonderful way to save money.



I have been building my Schionning 12.3 for 4 years now, part time and I believe I have 18 months to go, although many think I have longer and they may be right, it sure does feel like that during some of the interior fit out, it is very fiddly low visual impact work where hours seem to be sunk with very little to show off for it. I am however going to cheat!! As I said, I wont be fairing the inside of my boat, I am using liners though out, except in the wet areas (bathrooms). I also wont be fairing the outside either. I will be paying a crew to come in and fair and paint it later this year. I have my shell pretty much finished but I have not glassed the side decks on while I am fitting the hull furniture (as we speak).



I can also tell you that this place is by far the best builders resource you could find. In case you are interested in my build, I have kept a blog of it at http://www.mahnamahna.com.au. I am no expert but I do tell it warts and all. Good luck with your choice and your build.

rexd666
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Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:15 am
Location: Melbourne, Vic

Owner Built Resale

Post by rexd666 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:40 am

Some great responses so far guys.



I have noticed that in some of the cost estimates the prices seemed to jump in a non linear fashion as the length increased. Not that I have a good idea for the costs of operating, but there was an article in Blue Water Cruising that discussed monthly costs of cruisers and certainly bigger boats cost more, but not to the level that made me uncomfortable.



I had previously checked out TCP, but I was taking his views with a grain of salt as I also stumbled upon his opinions on Duflex. Just quietly the site design is not my cup of tea, sort of a web collage. Some good articles though. Was interested to see the Schionning example he posted. 200K for owner built, and with the right fitout selling for 550K. Good evidence for the wife.



Paul your post was awesome, lots of good info. I may have some more questions as I reread it. If there is a blog in existence I think I have found it now. (Scrumble, MahnaMahna, 44c, My little piece of peace, the main ones I follow)



I will confess I lean towards Oram's at the moment, but I am still a way off picking a design. Hoping to get to one of Spirited's open days, the Sanctuary Cove show, and maybe try and see some Oram's around the place also.



Steve

rexd666
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Owner Built Resale

Post by rexd666 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:16 am

Paul,

Knew I would find some more stuff. I noticed with the Oram 48c the bridgedeck cabin is assembled off the boat allowing the ceiling to be faired working downhand.



Already onto the US purchases outside of boats. I have one advantage a US shipping address and a retiree father waiting there to collect them and on ship them. Which gets around the normal issues with vendors not shipping beyond N. america. Are there particular places to look for the bargains? Other than eBay. Sometimes forums have a section for deals or group buys



Your boat builder saying reminds me of a sign I saw out the front of a small design firm. It was the word TURD, in gold, highly decorative script and sparkling away. The tag line under it was Polishing the Unpolishable. I guess with paint and bog they can achieve anything and hide all sorts of sins.



Steve

mahnamahna
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Owner Built Resale

Post by mahnamahna » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:21 am

Yes you couldnt go wrong with an Oram. Just look at 44's pics for evidence of that.



A lot of the major increase in cost as you go bigger is that the rig and sails need to be much bigger and stronger. Glass is a good example of how size effects cost. Recently a friend and I priced glass from a few local glazers. As sheets get bigger the engineering or curing process must change because the quote for a sheet of glass was 4 times what we would pay for the equivalent area of glass but in smaller sheets. A 40 ft boat may have a 17mt mast and a 50ft boat a 22mt mast but the cost of engineering that rig to stay up that extra 5 meters could double the radius of it and also double the cost of it and the rigging needed to keep it up.



And regarding duflex, I am building in duflex and Derek Kelsall is very anti balsa core, and when I chose my kit I did not know much about foam or balsa or any of the other options, and of course having made my choice it is natural for me to want to justify that to myself and others. But I look at it this way. There are numerous options now for designers such as Schionning, Oram, Spirited, Grainger and many others to choose from and whilst all of them offer foam as an option all of them still sell the bulk of their kits in balsa core. They cant all be wrong. If there were serious issues with balsa or duflex they would have moved away from it by now but they havent and are all still advocating its use. You must take care to completely seal any access for water to get at the core but this is just part of the job.



Feel free to ask as many questions as you like, but be warned :), there are many ways to achieve the same outcome and choosing the best often just comes down to personal choice as it can be hard to tell which is the best option, they are all so good. It has never been easier to build a quality boat with the great materials, and great advise available to us now.

rexd666
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Owner Built Resale

Post by rexd666 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:42 am

Had to laugh when I saw your example about glass. I actually work for a glass manufacturer, not to give it away, but there is only one in Aus. I don't work with the product but in IT, but have been around long enough to know a fair bit or people that know it. Generally glass is sold in m2, so your price should be the same for the same thickness. However as you go for bigger spans you need to go thicker. Then laminates or toughened glass can be required for safety.

I know in NZ we used to do a bit in the marine market, ones with the ceramic frit around the edge like modern windscreens.



I was going to say PM me and I can see if we have any customers in the area that I can recommend. But looks like no PM option on the forum??



Since I have given away my occupation I may not be much of a help with building advice yet, but if I can help out with the site or anyone else's issues with technology always happy to help.

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